Buying - X5 with high mileage & several owners

[saf_b21]

Hi All - hope everyone is enjoying the sunny weekend

I've had some excellent advice from several people on this forum relating to whether I ought to be looking at a petrol or diesel X5. So whilst having a quick gander on the usual places I spotted a 2004 facelift 4.4i, comes with around 85000 miles with 3 previous owners (i.e. current owner is the 4th owner), with full service history (part BMW part BMW specialist), current owner has had it for a year.

What I wanted to ask was:
a) Is 85k miles deemed too high for a 4.4i?
b) Do you think 4 owners is cause for concern?

Asked all the usual questions relating to mechanical issues, i.e. problems with the pan roof, cv joints etc. and owner assures me all is well.

What do you all think?

Saf

[tombs]

85k on these engines (in fact on any engine these days) is nothing providing its been serviced accordingly and any issues dealt with. 4 owners also wouldn't bother me as V8's are very thirsty and tend to put people of after a while of ownership so running costs are higher than most cars. What is important is history, at least the last couple of years worth of receipts etc. But you'll get a feel if its right or not, go with your "gut" instinct and if the price is right for you and you are happy with what you see than go for it. Good luck with your hunt,

Cheers

Tom

[saf_b21]

Cheers Tom - grateful for your advice, will keep you posted!

[AW8]

You have already had excellent reply from tombs.

a) Not at all. Engine capable of many more miles - 3 times that & more if looked after & not abused. At 85k I would expect to have to replace rear bushes & thrust bushes if on original items. Some bail at 80-90k fearing buyers wont consider cars approaching 100k. As said some may have bailed to avoid residual hits or after the odd big bill or 2. The E53 buyers guide on this forum should cover many issues to look for. Check for coolant leaks,check operation of everything including the auto box - hot & cold. Check discs/pads/tyres. If still in doubt find good indy near seller (ideally one not used by seller). An hour or two in labour to get an indy to check a car, ( ideally get them to check for fault codes too), may be money very well spent. Maybe best to get feel as to what seller will do if you find faults, (if unlikely to move on price or sort issues then paying for this could be a waste of cash).


b) 4 owners would not concern me. Many folk change car fairly frequesntly - it's not as if seller has only had it a few weeks. I would however ask why its being sold. Be wearly of stories of it being to big..........I'd rather here an honest response referring to fear of fuel & other potential costs.

Have a good look at old bills/invoices.

Just beware that average glasses guide mileage for a 2004 is 70k so dont pay O.T.T. for this car.

Good Luck

[x555]

Agreed RE high mileage and number of owners doesn't matter how many owners or mileage so long as it has been looked after well and maintained.
People will generaly go for a lower mileage car when buying but if it's been abused for those fewer miles the higher miler is better for purchase
Good luck and let us know the outcome.

[saf_b21]

Big thanks AW8 and X555 for the advice

Just an update for those interested - saw the car today and was left fairly happy with it to be honest. Seller seems genuine, car was used as a ferry around by the wife for the kids, only driven around 6k miles since purchased.

Drivers and passenger seat leathers were a little worn out on the edges (guess that's expected for a car this age???). Otherwise internally all worked ok (including sunroof!) and externally body work was fine (apart from a few scratches). Test drive was fine, drove really well, no vibrations through the steering, very responsive on the sport setting. All ok I guess.

Only things that put me off are:
1) It seemed like it was used as a towing car - the panel on the rear bumper covering the towbar nut was removed. Buyer says they've not towed anything and not experienced any issue with the car since bought. Should this be considered an issue?
2) Also seems like the rear brake pads need replacing (how much would this cost on average?).
3) AW8 - what's the average cost of replacing the rear/sub bushes and how would I know if these need doing?

Saf

[AW8]

1) Not really as long as it drives okay.
2) Peanuts realtively speaking Indy might charge you 1 hr labour so approx £60 maybe plus vat plus parts. Cant recall cost but motormec site will give you some idea of decent pads - failing that call your local dealer for parts price. Discs will cost you more. Be carerful not to budgest for a set of rear pads only to later find it needs pads/dioscs all round in next 5-10k miles.
3) Don't expect much change from £4-500 (4 hrs labour at indy assuming £240 plus vat plus parts cost. Buy the original BMW ones. I think they may price arounf £60 each and you need 4..............................Testing : At 20mph put it in sport and kick down - if shot they will display a thud noise as you boot it. Another way to check adverse wear on these would be to give it full beans at high revs in 2nd or 3rd then ( on straight road), lift off gas, if car seems unsettled and rear steers they may be shot.....Probably not best to try this as it could go wrong for you !!! also seller may become concerned. A rear subframe bush can fail the next day even if no signs of prior issues. At 85k if they haven't been done they WILL very likely need doing sooner rather than later. I would allow at least £500 for same unless evidence they have been done,( if buying an E53 X5 with more than 80k), & even if not showing signs of failure now. It's a case of when rather than if they will need doing ! Same goes for front outer CV boots at that mileage, (allow 1.5 - 2 hrs per side !!! Labour plus boot kit per side so allow a good £300 for the pair maybe.

Be careful as cost of discs/pads all around plus subframe bushes wont leave much change from £1,500 plus cv boots thats £1800. Dont kid yourself re tyres. If not decent depth & matching you could need 4 decent ones sooner than you think & that's potentially up to another £900-£1000 fitted.

If no invoices then call dealers that have worked on the car after getting their details from BMW customer services- details in my buyers guide - you will need reg number &/or last * of VIN.chassis number. This may give some idea of work done to the car.

Not trying to scare you - the car may want for nothing but if not careful you could be paying once to buy & again to sort issues. It has to be expected you may find little niggle type jobs/repairs after you buy. The more you check & negotiate the less chance of this happening. Don't forget to check folding mirrors, (several times), if fitted as many folk forget to check these properly.

Do not be put off by mileage as even a 70k mile car will have all these bills around the corner in say 10-30k miles unless all prior sorted.


HTH

[saf_b21]

AW8 – you’re a star, your advice is much appreciated

Have always been concerned about the stress on the engine whilst towing hence my initial anxiety, don’t actually know if it’s had a towbar it’s just that the covering panel is missing...

Checked out prices for brake pads and as you said AW8 cost is relatively ok, will ring BMW tomorrow and find out how much the main dealer parts are priced at

Unfortunately seller didn’t know whether cv boots/subframe bushes had been replaced, again will ring the BMW dealer who serviced it last and find out

Curiously when I checked the V5 it turned out I know the previous owner! Quick call to him confirmed that the vehicle was fine with no issues in his ownership

Also asked the seller to check whether it has Bluetooth connectivity – forgot to check for this whilst there, and although the car has satnav/tv/phone cradle in centre console I don’t remember seeing Bluetooth listed on the screen display. Any ideas of what options I have if there is no factory fitted Bluetooth, i.e. can it be fitted by dealers?

Just a few of these things to check out, will keep you updated

Ta

[CondorX5]

I might be wrong (I'm sure someone will tell me if I am!) but as the car is a 2004 and has a phone cradle, it will have Bluetooth - prefacelifts did not always have BT, some had the motorola hard wired unit, but I'm sure facelifts do - especially if there is a phone cradle in situ- no purpose to a phone cradle fitted unless you can use the phone!

[saf_b21]

Thanks CondorX5 - that's exactly what I thought and conveyed to the seller. I've asked seller to check so just awaiting return phone call, fingers crossed the BT module is there and it's simply a loose connection issue or something (hence no BT option on screen display)

Wish me luck!

[saf_b21]

Just spoke to the seller who tells me the BT module is there with a label stating BT ULF and the bluetooth passkey, yet there's no option for BT on the dash screen display - any ideas what the problem is here? Possible loose connection in the wiring?

Seller also advised that the service indicator is showing 4 amber lights - can someone advise what this means in terms of next service? Also seems to be an issue with the inspection 2 service possibly not having been done by the last service specialist (an alleged BMW specialist, although inspection 2 has been ticked in the service book).

Seller seemed quite stunned at my knowledge of the E53, I basked in my newly found smugness momentarily before confessing this was all down to the helpful folk on this forum!

[AW8]

[quote=""saf_b21""]Seller also advised that the service indicator is showing 4 amber lights - can someone advise what this means in terms of next service? [/quote]

- Each light represents approx 3000 miles
- If just reset with all 5 showing then next service would be approx 15k.
- If 4 remain then potentially 12k assuming the 1 extinguished very recently.
- If the service done neaer 6k miles ago then expect the 4th lamp to extinguish soon & 3 to remain.
- When 3 remaining approximate to 9k.
- They go out quicker if car used for lots of short journies.
- Ideally check for documented evidence of service in last 3-5k or threabouts to support what the lights are showing.

Cut/paste from the E53 buyers guide....if you forgot this info was there then perhaps you haven't read it thoroughly enough !

What about the service lights ?

Servicing is variable & indicvated by way of service lights – reckon on servicing every 15k miles or thereabouts. Servicing stamps should read as follows on the rearlier E53 models. (PDI- WHEN NEW ONLY) OIL INSP> INSP 1>.OIL INSP >INSP2 THEN REPEATED. A car just serviced will have 5 green lights illuminated. If the only lights indicating are red or amber service overdue lamps then proceed but with caution but ensure this is reflected in the price paid and that the servicing has not been overlooked for star ship miles. Also carefully check the history to make sure this isn't part of a pattern of late services by someone lazy, tight or unable to afford to run the car. Always check history by checking stamps and/or verifying same by contacting dealers/owners, bmw uk or other legitimate means. Schedule for later diesels varies slightly.



[quote=""saf_b21""]
Also seems to be an issue with the inspection 2 service possibly not having been done by the last service specialist (an alleged BMW specialist, although inspection 2 has been ticked in the service book).[/quote]

It has either has had an Inspection 2 or it hasn't ! If the book has been ticked then hopefully the details of the specialist will be in the service book along with the date & mileage. Seller would have had to pay for this & as such would have had a receipt &/or ideally a detailed printout/schedule of what was done- ask to see this. On Insp 2 the 8 spark plugs should have been changed & the invoice should have a parts cost for this as well as air filter & other items. Important you are satisfied this was fully done. Also check what oil was used as if its wrong stuff you should cause oil to be changed again........If no invoice then ask yourself why would a seller not keep such a piece of paperwork. If seller can't satisy re this then you should assume it wasn't done properly &/or be perhaps be similalry vigilant on checking evidence of other services.

Fwiw the indy (1 of 3 I trust), I use has all work done on our cars on his computer. I misplaced an invoice for work on the Z3 & he simply sent me a duplicate. Your seller should be able to request this sent to him/her assuming he/she gives the date & car details to the specialist. A good specialist would send a duplicate to you on sellers request &/or fax you same. I would also ask if any additional work recomendations were made at Insp 2. If seller reluctant, or says this is not possible then be concerned. I would also maybe call the specialist to see what they can tell you.......they may be more orthcoming if you perhaps indicated you might be consider taking it to them in future ( even if you later change your mind

Unless you can be sure that a proper Insp 2 was done you should allow £5-600 for getting this done properly & that's assuming that nothing is found that needs doing on back of it.......Look at buyers guide & call the car history ( premium rate) line at BMW - This is a must. Hopefully car is legit & all god but don't assume folk dont clock cars back to a few thousand shy of 100k ......they do !

If history of car has question marks you should not only question wellbeing of car but also maybe the mileage even if all is well. Check old MOT's & verify mileages against other paperwork. If in significant doubt then firm up info or walk away...Your future buyer may walk or knock off thousands for same reasons when you come to sell the car later if it has questionable history.

[quote=""saf_b21""]Seller seemed quite stunned at my knowledge of the E53, I basked in my newly found smugness momentarily before confessing this was all down to the helpful folk on this forum![/quote]

Smugness fine later...........A clued up seller could still know far more than you & may still be hiding secrets. Telling them you found this forum may have caused your seller to view this thread - in which case they could be one step ahead in trying to negate real issues of concern. Causing them to see details of cheaper resolutions to problems may further weaken your price negotiation ability.

Good Luck once again

[saf_b21]

Cheers AW8 for the comprehensive response – sounds like you’re giving me a right telling off! Probably deserved though given my amateurish questions and approach!

I didn’t specifically tell the seller about the forum, all I mentioned was that I had done a fair amount of research on the internet hence my (still limited) knowledge

I’ve read your buyers guide several times and prior to posting referred to the guide again and noted your paragraph about the servicing. It was just the semantics in your sentence which I could not get my head around, i.e. “…if the only lights indicating are red or amber service overdue lights…”. I couldn’t work out whether the amber lights also indicated an overdue service or not, checked it out on the BMW UK site too but to no avail hence my query here. Your response is helpful though and alleviates any concerns I had about overdue servicing

The issue with the inspection 2 is that buyer purchased the car from a local garage and asked for service to be done (amongst other things) as a condition of sale, which the garage apparently did (through said BMW specialist). I rang said specialist yesterday and upon enquiry they informed that all they did was an oil change based on instruction from the car garage/dealer, yet the inspection 2 box was ticked on the service book. Seller was equally peeved about this and has offered to ring the specialist and the garage to find out what has happened and why, if the work wasn’t done, the service book indicates it has.
All previous service undertaken by BMW Dealership which fills me with some confidence, will be ringing the penultimate servicing dealer to get more info.

[AW8]

Comments noted including being told off - LOL………...I am a bit direct at times albeit keen to help
All unsubstantiated speculation but it certainly seems that someone may has misrepresented what was actually done.

Hard to tell you how to play this one in abscence of knowing the car, it's history & the maths in the deal.

If you haggle an Insp 2 cost off price you still have a car which currently has a minor history discrepancy but if good deal can be done it could work ok for you.
Few main dealers will perform an Insp 2 without advising other work on back of it, so don't make mistake of haggling just say £400 off the price.
You could invite seller to cause main dealer or decent BMW Indy Insp 2 & any recommendations from same - but it is possible that non actioned recommendations could remin undisclosed to you.

Another option if all dealer visits in current book correct would be to buy another service book & ask dealer to retrospectivley & accurately fill in the new book thus leaving you with a main dealer only history & no refeence to the incorrect specialist entry. You could alternatively ask specialist to ammend the book & initial same re the contraversial visit.

A problem remains however, in that the service lamps could be out of synch with the next due service/inspection procedure & bottom line is you have a 7yr old car with 85k showing which is likely on original plugs and air filter………this wont kill the car but it will need sorting sooner rather than later.

Many would walk away but it can be hard if you have fallen for the car, (it's not the cars fault after all). You could find another with better service book but a lesser car.

Nothing wrong IMO on buying on condition so long as you are confident re same & satisfied with accuracy of mileage. You should also consider that eventually & when you do come to sell you are likely to use this forum to advertise it & a quick check of posts will show you have already had occasion to question this cars history.

If it helps I walked away from a deal on a car because of issues with history I felt were unresolveable to my satisfaction unless seller significantly lowered sale price.............I felt bad about doing this as the car was otherwise mint but I got over it & eventually, (many weeks later), found another car.

Yet more food for thought.............a lot will depend how much you want this specific car & final maths.

[tombs]

Knowledge is power! AW8 has made some very valid points, I'd also second the comment about seeing the car into a dealer for an insp 2 if the seller agrees, but be prepared for additional work being recommended right down to the dust caps!
AW8 obviously likes everything to be in order and "straight" (I'd recommend making sure we are all quick off the mark when he comes to sell his car cause it will be a right "minter"!) Bear in mind with second hand cars there has to be an element of trust and "gut" feel and with the knowledge you've picked up from this forum you will be in a much better position to make a good enough judgement on this particular car.

Re the suggestion of buying a new service book and getting a dealer to re-stamp, I would say keep it simple and stay with the original. Obviously to you right now the car is possibly a keeper for the very near future but when and if you come to sell that car you'll have a newish service book that shows several stamps with the same stamp, pen ink and handwriting over several years...I think that looks more suspicious than one thats got several different signatures and pen ink (saw an X5 in South Croydon with a service book that had a load of stamps from the same dealer and signature and pen ink but had 2 or 3 previous owners, the seller and car didn't add up at all). If any potential buyer questions the original book and service schedule you can show evidence from receipts etc and of course point them here!

On the notion about potential buyers walking away, I don't think this would be the case if the price is right as the service management system can be adjusted to bring up to date to actually whats been done and I think (I could be wrong) that BMW use NGK plugs which are good for at least 60K miles if not more, so don't panic about damage to engine etc and being a big engine and not having to work so hard will not be to hard on plugs etc.

What I'm trying to get across though is don't be put of by the problems you "might" have with the X5 as they may never happen. This forum is invaluable and has a lot of information on tap right at your fingertips, I've personally learnt a hell of a lot about my X5 through this forum and I would go as far to say these cars are possible to own on a reasonable budget if you are prepared to invest time and research on the things that need fixing. The first right thing you did was come here! Ok, group hug now