Testing and Diagnosing the E53 Webasto Thermo Top C/Z

[X5 ALN]

[quote="Alan703"]
DIS is the BMW software
MID is the nav screen

IHKA could natter, as if park heating is fitted as standard, there is a changeover valve on the water system, which it controls - but, I beleive it is to change from heating engine to heating cab.

The water pump was working before, and I'm sure I felt it working last night.

When the webasto fired, the water temperature rose from 55 to 125 in a matter of a couple of minutes - so it does sound like a circulation problem.
[/quote]

Edit 23/11/12: this morning it was 5 degrees. - cold engine.
I tried it by remote, started and failed.
Started car, pulled fuse, replaced fuse after 10 sec to wipe the lockout error - it fired up.
It got hot - I drove 3.5miles to work - it was stills running - with hot exhaust fumes

So, success on the normal operation, fail on the remote side.

[jaynana]

Alan, the good news is the webo is now working as bmw intended it to - at start-up around 5c outside...

congrads on that - you should take a moment to appreciate what you have achieved, good job there  )

re. the fault you are getting. it does sound very much like the fault described in the bmw literature, about the car searching for the changover valve.. which somehow by expereince has not happened to any of us here. for us the webo happily works when switched on with power to pin 1 or from the OBC.

only difference in what you're doing or which i can't understand is - the software you're using is different. i just have scanner 1.4.0 for the car and reslers for the webo... so i can't relate to the screen grabs or the reports from the software u have..

couple of thoughts..

1. is your plumbing arrangement different to mine/ours? what is the plumbing arrangement right below your webo? can you send a photo pls.

mine's as below, although its a photo taken for a diff. purpose and it doesn't really show the plumbing arrangement. slightly lower should do.



2. as you say yours is overheating: i'm sure you've already tested this with the depth you've gone into this; but with your software, are you able to do a circulation test? ie, enable teh circulation pump only. when you do this, water should start happily circulating and a jet of water should appear if you open the coolant cap.

reason i ask is, if circulation is happening, regardless of the valve, the coolant circuit shouldn't overheat? because all that valve was meant to do was, switch from engine coolant mode to cabin coolant mode. so instead of overheating, it should heat up the entire coolant network of the car i would have presumed..

in fact all this time i thought our webos did this, as i always thought ours didn't ahve that valve either! although we've not ended up with a fault..


cheers

j

[X5 ALN]

I'm 99% sure the circulation is working - I tested it initially.

Under the webasto is the valve as per the the drawing for auxiliary heat in realoem.

Three hoses attached and a twin cable thing on top.

What is the cost of scanner 1.4.0? I got the software from www.bmw-cables.co.uk along with the cable I bought.

[jaynana]

this is the plumbing i have from realoem. there's no valve. its very simple.

the scanner i have is something like this.

[jaynana]

[quote="jaynana"]
this is the plumbing i have from realoem. there's no valve. its very simple.

the scanner i have is something like this.
[/quote]

alan can you send a photo of yours and a link to the valve in realoem. it just maybe that your setup has the valve and its faulty therefore a fault reported, whereas in ours there no valve so the system is designed to bypass that step - so no fault reported?

[X5 ALN]

If it works - I'm on mobile

http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?mod ... g=64&fg=18

Item 4 and 9

Water pump definately works - just checked.
Using remote to try and start webasto. Outside temp 7.5 degrees - failed to fire

Chassis is LX20252 under heating then valves. Only IHKA drawing with a parts list

For the remote 12v to unit and relay - I tapped both into the 12v wire plug on the car intended for the telestart. Is that ok, or should I have taken it from battery?  I get 12v at webasto when checked.

[X5 ALN]

When we programmed it at bmw - we might have retrofitted the parking heating - in effect telling the car he had fitted parts, when we hadn't.

Cant remember how we actually got the dash to display Auxiliary Heating

[jevansio]

I have that 3 way connection under my webo, I didn't think it was a valve, rather a 3 way splitter.  Water comes out the webo, into that splitter, then it's split into left & right heater matrix supplies, then back out the matrix as a single hsoe back to the engine system.

Wouldn't the IKHA fault would only matter if you were firing from the IKHA though, if you provide 12v to the webo pin one the webo will do it's thing regardless of other faults on the car?  i can imagine your setup not working if you're firing the webo via the on board monitor

I wired my remote exactly as you taking both the relay supply &  switch from the same 12v pin on the plug in the boot, that should work fine.

[jaynana]

not to switch on the webo from teh obc is exactly what the bmw material says, saying that that would make the car go looking for a valve, and that the non-existence of it would register a fault.. although we all seem to live happily with that option, with no errors reported.

so i suspect there are different variants of cars with regard to this plumbing layout.

alan, if what you sent below is what you have your car definitely has a different plumbing layout to mine.

in realoem car selected, select subgroup 'auxiliary heating' i get this plumbing layout, which is what i have.

same car selected, if i select subgroup ' 'water pump, valve, hoses' I get this plumbing layout, which is similar to what you have, but the component list doesn't come up, instead it says:

'Items pictured but not listed are not installed on your vehicle.
Items pictured without a number are listed on another diagram.'

so definitely you have a different plumbing layout to mine.

[quote="Alan703"]
For the remote 12v to unit and relay - I tapped both into the 12v wire plug on the car intended for the telestart. Is that ok, or should I have taken it from battery?  I get 12v at webasto when checked.
[/quote]

i took it from teh 12v wire on the plug on the car intended for the telestart. its through a 5A fuse as well and is the right thing to do.

[jaynana]

thinking further on this, so if you have a different plumbing layout alan, which includes a valve, it is not a show-stopper for parked heating, it is in fact a benefit. i guess jevansio has this as well.

the issue with our plumbing layout which do not have a valve is that when the webo runs it has to heat up the entire coolant network.

in the 'valved' variant it shuts off the engine side of the coolant network when in parked heating mode, thereby  massively improving efficiently of the webo heating the cars cabin.

(it still puzzles me as to why my car then doesn't give an error as bmw material says, when aux heating is switched on from the obc but lets leave that aside for a moment.. the good news is you have a valve).

is it then possible that the valve is faulty? and therefore when you tried to enable it from the obc in aux heating mode it reported an error? if that's the case the things to do:

1. can you reset that error (presumably not.. i guess you've tried this a million times by now  )
2. check if the valve is operational?

[X5 ALN]

[quote="jevansio"]
I have that 3 way connection under my webo, I didn't think it was a valve, rather a 3 way splitter.  Water comes out the webo, into that splitter, then it's split into left & right heater matrix supplies, then back out the matrix as a single hsoe back to the engine system.

Wouldn't the IKHA fault would only matter if you were firing from the IKHA though, if you provide 12v to the webo pin one the webo will do it's thing regardless of other faults on the car?  i can imagine your setup not working if you're firing the webo via the on board monitor

I wired my remote exactly as you taking both the relay supply &  switch from the same 12v pin on the plug in the boot, that should work fine.
[/quote]

It has a multiplug on it. So it must be more than a splitter?

[X5 ALN]

[quote="jaynana"]
not to switch on the webo from teh obc is exactly what the bmw material says, saying that that would make the car go looking for a valve, and that the non-existence of it would register a fault.. although we all seem to live happily with that option, with no errors reported.

so i suspect there are different variants of cars with regard to this plumbing layout.

alan, if what you sent below is what you have your car definitely has a different plumbing layout to mine.

in realoem car selected, select subgroup 'auxiliary heating' i get this plumbing layout, which is what i have.

same car selected, if i select subgroup ' 'water pump, valve, hoses' I get this plumbing layout, which is similar to what you have, but the component list doesn't come up, instead it says:

'Items pictured but not listed are not installed on your vehicle.
Items pictured without a number are listed on another diagram.'

so definitely you have a different plumbing layout to mine.

[quote="Alan703"]
For the remote 12v to unit and relay - I tapped both into the 12v wire plug on the car intended for the telestart. Is that ok, or should I have taken it from battery?  I get 12v at webasto when checked.
[/quote]

i took it from teh 12v wire on the plug on the car intended for the telestart. its through a 5A fuse as well and is the right thing to do.
[/quote]

You have both 12 and 4 in the valve picture? 12 is the changeover valve - you can see the description if you go in without your chassis number and select LHD not RHD

[X5 ALN]

The valve is immediately under the webasto - in your image above, I think it's the multiplug you see underneath the fuel retaining clip you have pointed to.

I do not have the valve numbered 12 in the diagram with no parts listing - I think that is what it's looking for.

Even if you fire from the 12v - that only wakes up the K-Bus, The IHKA still does the checks before firing.
This maybe isn't relevant when the car itself starts the webasto as bmw intended.

I can reset the faults buy pulling the fuse, but they come straight back after a false start.

[jaynana]

this baby here?


i don't think that's 'the valve' in question.

the realoem  page has 2 plumbing diagrams.

1. cars with 'auxiliary heating water hoses':


2. cars with 'independent heating water valves':


THAT must be the valve.

note the difference, the latter has reference to a valve, and an extra component.

[X5 ALN]

Your bang on. The valve in the photo is no 4 - present and correct.

The valve (no 12) circled in the drawing - I do not have and is called a changeover valve - and that is what the fault is. I assume the fault is the fact it's not there, so not communicating with IHKA.

I cannot find out how to reverse the retrofit programming.

Currently reading through NCS expert.

If it doesn't work, I may have to buy the tool you have.