Higher mileage E83.... Sensible buy or economical suicide.....???

[Hughieboy]

Hello,

I hope someone can answer this for me and that nobody minds me asking on the owners forum!

I'm looking to buy an older SUV, realistically 3-4k's worth and my shortlist has boiled down to Nissan X-Trail diesel (sensible head choice) or older probably high mileage E83 X3, again diesel (the heart's choice!).

I need a vehicle that's suitable for mostly long distance runs at weekends that's comfortable, reliable, not ridiculously thirsty and has plenty of space in the back for my gear (musician). Typical usage will be it sits on the drive all week then does 2 - 400 miles over the weekend. I used to do it in a Touareg which was great but the MPG wasn't then up to now I've been using a Merc C Class Blue Efficiency which is great but not so good in fields with marquees and due to one thing and another I'm having to go for a cheaper car than the MB this time (loan for motorhome!)

So would an E83 be a good buy? And which would be most suitable? Or would I be constantly emptying my pockets on expensive repairs? A friend of mine has got me concerned saying that they suffer from electrical faults which are expensive to fix etc but knowing nothing about their reliability I thought I would come to where the experts hang out! I don't want to fall into the trap of buying an older premium car to then find its a money pit and that I should have gone for something a bit more 'ordinary'.

I'd appreciate any advice on this, thanks in advance,

Hugh.

[graemeX5]

Hi

the X3 is a good car and probably Jagr could give you more info best on them as he's had a couple that I know of and had problems and fixed them and done nods on them.

Also have a look at the X3 (E83) section on how to and issues. Again the usual car check apply and a car with FSH will help. Also as they have a lot of electrics so check that all of them work.

From what I know there are more 2.0d about but there is a 3.0d and even a 35d I believe which is rare. It just depends what you want from it performance spec of car etc.

Hope that helps
Graeme

[graemeX5]

Hi

also check for its performance as if it feels down on power it could be the MAF
See link

http://xdrivers.co.uk/forum/index.php/t ... cseen.html

Graeme

[jagr]

As Graeme says I had a '56 2.0d manual which was a great go anywhere (within reason) car with plenty of space and comfort.
I would still have it now if it hadn't been stolen.

On a run you can get 40mpg and round town average around 28-30mpg.

The main problems with the X3 are:

Tyres have to be star rated (need a star * on them)
Thermostats but that is the same on nearly all BMW's and easy to change yourself
Swirlflaps is DIY'able for under £30 and if you don't do it yourself budget £150 for 4 cylinder and £200 for 6.
Rear springs snap but are cheap and easy to replace

I am a believer that no oil is for life so would recommend you change gearbox, transfer case and diff oils but there are arguments for and against.

My previous X3 was an SE and my current is the M-Sport. I don't mind the harder suspension but a few friends hate going in my car so it could be prudent to test both versions and see which you prefer.


Unless you want horrendous fuel consumption I would not recommend a petrol as my mates 2.5 auto rarely saw over 20mpg, he is a hard driver but for that kind of consumption  i would want a much more powerful car.

As Graeme says the pick of the bunch is the 3.0sd/35d depending on year.

Mine is an '07 3.0sd twin turbo and the power is very addictive and really brings the X3 to life. Fuel consumption for  a near 150mph and 6.4 sec 0-60mph car is incredible to me, local I average 25mpg and on a run 37mpg which kind of makes the 2.0d a bit pointless.

Which ever X3 you choose make sure you do your homework regarding tax as it is a minefield.

My '56 2.0d was £265 and my '07 3.0sd is £500.
If I had bought an '06 3.0d or an '08 3.0sd it would have been £290.

As much as I hate paying £500 a year when you break it down it is only around £4.50 a week more though.

I would recommend an X3 E83 to anyone as they are reliable, spacious, comfy and really hold there value well.

[Hughieboy]

Hi
That's brilliant, thanks for the comprehensive replies. I just wanted to get some advice from those in the know, I'm happy to do basic home maintenance but not engine work (don't have the knowledge for modern stuff) and I realise there will be wear and tear on any higher mileage 10-12 year old vehicle.
So I guess that means they can be pretty easy to live with and fairly reliable. I'll take your advice on board and see what I can find

[Johnnyboy]

I bought my 2007 3.0d SE three years ago with 55,000 on the clock, from a main dealer, with a warranty.

It has now done 100k miles, and is great to drive round town, on motorways and particularly across Europe.

It is also very practical and well liked by passengers, even on very long journeys.

However it has cost a lot (IMO)

- A new parking sensor and fuel filler ejector pad                  - £340
- New front discs and pads                                                    - £445
- "diagnostic"                                                                        - £158
- A new transfer box                                                          - £2,191
- New exhaust pressure converter and 6 glow plugs              - £431
- Pair of new "Pull struts" (front suspension arms/bushes)  - £570
- New Rear discs and pads                                                  -  £398
- A new inlet manifold (another) exhaust pressure converter and oil separator  - £1,412
- A new battery                                                                      - £103
- Full service                                                                          - £397
- Oil Services (x2 @ £168 each)                                            - £336
                                                                                          ---------
Maintenance Total for 45,000 miles of enjoyable driving:  - £ 6,731

(plus tax and insurance and diesel....)

(plus, I hit a kerb:
New bottom suspension arm and ball joint  £288
2 wheel alignment (failed...) - £30
KDS 4 wheel alignment (successful...) £190 - £508 total)       

Only electrical fault so far is the parking sensor.
Paid £11,000, now worth £6,000(?)

Mounts up, doesn't it :blink:

[shak]

Wow that's quite a lot of money.  Coming from a ford focus which absolutely nothing went wrong in and climbing into a bmw x5 has reminded me just how expensive these cars can be.

[Horizon]

[quote="shak"]
Wow that's quite a lot of money.  Coming from a ford focus which absolutely nothing went wrong in and climbing into a bmw x5 has reminded me just how expensive these cars can be.
[/quote]
I bought a 55 plate X5 3.0d Sport a few years ago, good history, loads of paperwork, 93k on the clock, I had the gearbox serviced as a precaution, fitted a new battery, as I'm a weekend warrior ( drive the van mon - Friday )
That's all it cost me in 2 years, had a 840 CI for 2 years, cost me a Cat converter £250,  Had 2 e46 325i's cost me 1 battery and 2 window regulators, had an e30 3251, cost me a set of rear brake shoes and a set of rear discs..
Use your head and don't buy the first piece of S*** you look At, there's loads of rough ones out there.
Same as any other brand.

[jagr]

[quote="Johnnyboy"]
However it has cost a lot (IMO)

- A new parking sensor and fuel filler ejector pad                  - £340
- New front discs and pads                                                    - £445
- "diagnostic"                                                                        - £158
- A new transfer box                                                          - £2,191
- New exhaust pressure converter and 6 glow plugs              - £431
- Pair of new "Pull struts" (front suspension arms/bushes)  - £570
- New Rear discs and pads                                                  -  £398
- A new inlet manifold (another) exhaust pressure converter and oil separator  - £1,412
- A new battery                                                                      - £103
- Full service                                                                          - £397
- Oil Services (x2 @ £168 each)                                            - £336
                                                                                          ---------
Maintenance Total for 45,000 miles of enjoyable driving:  - £ 6,731
[/quote]

Where those at a BMW dealership?

New front discs and pads....I spent £150 for genuine BMW parts and did it myself
Diagnostic charge...Buy Carly for £80 and do it yourself
Pressure converter £90
6x Glow plugs £90
Rear discs and pads...again genuine BMW £125
Oil service....£65 and do it yourself or £120 specialist
Full Service again do it yourself or £250ish specialist
Transfer box....£800 exchange
Fuel filler flap ejector £15
Oil separator £45
Varta Silver battery £90

What was wrong with your inlet manifold? had you removed the swirl flaps?
Was it a front or rear parking sensor? if front available for £20 (as they are black) rear is painted so around £120

Front suspension I have no idea on costs except I am sure with shopping around you could save a third.


[quote="Johnnyboy"]
(plus, I hit a kerb:
New bottom suspension arm and ball joint  £288
2 wheel alignment (failed...) - £30
KDS 4 wheel alignment (successful...) £190 - £508 total)
[/quote]

Hitting a kerb is not the cars fault...with regards to the 4 wheel alignment that is a ridiculous cost. I had my Corvette setup on a Hunter system for around £80.


[quote="Johnnyboy"]
Mounts up, doesn't it :blink:
[/quote]

Depends on where you go for work as I think shopping around you could have saved £3500+

My 2 X3's over the last 3.5 years have cost me:

Needed:

1 battery - £90
2 rear springs - warranty paid
1 glow plug controller - £85
Thermostats on both cars - £220
2 rear tyres (on 1 car) - £360
front and rear brakes (on 1 car) - £280
2x Oil/Air/Fuel/Micro filters on both cars £300 (inc oil) (1 fuel filter on each car)
Oil separator (1 car) £30

I didn't have to do these but I prefer preventative maintenance:

Swirl flaps on both cars £80
Transfer case oil change on 1st X3 £85
Transfer/Gearbox and both diff oils on current X3 £450
Vac pipes and updated pressure converters on current X3 £200

Less miles than you though 25k miles

[Johnnyboy]

Hi again.

Just to be clear, I like my X3 a lot, and think it is a great car. It was a good, clean, low mileage, well cared for and serviced car when I got it, just as it is now.

Answers to some questions have been asked:

The prices are mostly BMW Rybrook Warwick, of whom I have no criticism (or any undisclosed connection...).

I was trying to maintain the cars "Full Main Dealer Service History" as I keep intending to sell it "soon", and I think that makes them easier to sell. And having worked in the aftermarket parts industry for 20 years I like using main dealer parts for anything affecting my safety or enjoyment. I certainly don't disagree with the actual aftermarket prices that have been quoted. However the labour cost...  I am happy to work on my 1970's "old mans toy" cars (which I can actually understand!), at least when it is warm and sunny,  but not on one of todays electronic marvels. And not in winter when I need it to go to work. Besides, I don't have a ramp and I don't like getting dirty.

The large items were mostly covered by a purchased Third Party Warranty which pays for main dealer repairs. They have refunded me £4,404 of the bills, though of course I have had to pay for the warranty. My note was supposed to be about X3 reliability and running costs so I didn't bother going into all that...

Those items that weren't covered by the warranty I got multiple quotes for:
- The cheapest quote I got for the "front pull struts/ tension arms" to be replaced (silly design it appears, if the bush wears you have to replace the whole arm and then you are supposed to replace the ball joint as well...) was £498. (parts appear to be BMW only and were: Arms with bushes £108 each, ball joints with nuts etc £112 each). A pair of press-in bushes would have been preferable but I couldn't find any...
- Cheapest quote for brakes was £260 for fronts, £230 for rears, fitted. I would go EBC (more expensive...) from choice.
- I do extra "interim" oil changes myself at 10,000/11,000 miles, inbetween the 22,000 miles that seem to come up on the dashboard, which I didn't mention / include in the original list as I did not want to "over egg" the costs. I use Mobil 1 for £60 (6 litres 'ish at £10/litre) and a filter /sump plug and washer kit for £12.... And it takes ages to work your way through the 3 layers of shielding there is under the sump... I do this because I have also spent some time in the oil industry and feel I know a bit about oil technology and don't trust the Manufacturers - "for the life of the engine/gearbox/whatever" is in my view probably true but it will be a shorter life....
- As such I have also changed the gearbox oil and filter at 90.000 (once the transfer box had given up and been replaced...) which you are not really supposed to have to do, so I did not originally mention this as it is probably just me being nervous and was probably not necessary / "unfair".
- BMW glow plugs are listed at £24 each, but aftermarket would be cheaper.
- The inlet manifold was because of the mess the failing pressure converter (which controls the EGR valve...) had made by causing the EGR valve to stick partially open. The swirl flaps were still there and "working", but everything was black, oily and gunged up, and the flap pivots seemed a bit wobbly and the seals certainly did not seal well with all the carbon build up. I think the warranty people just didn't fancy putting 90,000 mile swirl flaps back onto an engine (and apparently they don't put in new flaps, its recommended they put in a complete new inlet manifold complete with flaps and linkages). I debated paying extra for a delete kit but it seemed to be a bit ungrateful to throw away a new set of flaps and associated gubbins so decide I could probably trust the new set to work for a little while... (fingers crossed). Why two pressure converter switches have failed is another interesting question....

- I agree entirely that the kerb was not the cars fault, which was why I did not include it in the maintenance figure. I was just looking for a bit of sympathy. I hit it hard enough to write off a number of family hatchbacks we could probably name, but it was low enough to miss X3 bodywork. The longer story is that when the new suspension arms etc. were fitted to the left hand side, the garage tracked it with their kit as part of the job but it did not feel right or safe when I drove it away. I was worried I had bent the chassis (or at least embedded the suspension mounting points into it) but they assured me they had checked this and it was OK... So they arranged for me to take it to a specialist 4 wheel tracking mate of theirs on the same estate. He basically went through the activities 3 times over two hours and it was still not right and charged me a "token" 2 wheel track as a gesture. So a bit of panicky Internet trawling later I went to BMW Warwick and they tell me it took them "the best part of a morning on KDS" - but it was perfect at the end of it, so whatever they did it was a success.

Main dealers labour charges round here seem to be anything from £100 per hour upwards, with "specialist" garages coming in at  £65 - £100. "General" garages (that have got to be capable of doing brake pads and servicing..) at £45 - £70. My mates work for £20 per hour cash provided they don't need specialist tools.

Watching an expert dismantling half of the front of the car to get access to the rearmost manifold fixings and then using a variety of odd tools and what he described as "mechanics tricks" to get things fastened back onto it taught me that I was out of my class... If you are skilled enough to get at your glow plugs and pressure converter without dislocating something you have my respect.

Doing it (ie. the simpler jobs..) myself would obviously be much cheaper... But... I need the car to go to work, so I need to know it will be back together OK on Monday... and I have not got the specialist tools so I could get stuck... and I might need an unplanned part on Sunday... and I sincerely hope I don't have to do it often enough that I actually know what I am doing in advance... so a specialist or main dealer who knows what they are doing, have done it before, have all the stupidly expensive and rarely used special tools and who give me a courtesy car - is the way it has to be...

And I still like the X3.

(they are pretty damn good off road as well you know.. I go Green Laning with a mate in his Land Rover 110 and we have come across a couple of pretty much roadgoing X3's in very difficult places this year... They need different tyres of course and you would need sump and gearbox and diff guards to go wild. but the suspension articulation is not as bad as you would expect and the power distribution is really rather good so they get through some surprisingly difficult stuff...).

Sorry about the rambling - its what you get when you let someone who has had a couple of glasses of Merlot loose on a computer...


 

[G_M_S]

Had several E83's so here's my experience:

2005 2.0d Sport - great car, until I started to have sludge, and then DPF issues, got to the point where it had to go - and it wasn't in my ownership of 40,000 miles that they reckon the issue was done, but in it's early life of short journeys (never drove less than 25 miles in a single journey with us, and often 2 or 300 miles at a shot). 2 sets of broken rear springs - common issue and cheap to fix (mine where under AUC warranty)

2008 35dXDrive - regret ever selling this car, best engine / gearbox fun I've had in a car, but was offered more money than I'd paid for it, a year later and faced with an expensive brake service (disks and pads all round was over £1k) and there was a X5 with the auxiliary fuel heater that I really wanted - you live and learn.

2008 3.0d SE - great car, but didn't have xenons (a must for me) and I drove it into a rather deep puddle of standing water and wrote the car off after 2 weeks - so cant really comment.

After the little incident with the puddle, I was stuck looking for a replacement and not wanting to compromise on the Xenon's and her indoors wanting a manual, I bought a 2004 2.5i Manual for £6k as a "stop gap" well just over 2 years later that car has only cost me 1 x coil pack, 2 x rear springs (actually only 1 failed but I like to replace in pairs), an oil service (£169 from BMW) and 2 clean MOT's no advisories.

Average economy is 28 mpg over 25,000 miles - which includes mixed motorway and A road driving, can get 33mpg on a long run, been looking for a replacement but every time I get to sit in her, I think there never will be a BMW with a 6 cylinder engine and a manual gearbox - so we keep hold of her, and her in doors has even refused to take on my X5 4.0d as a replacement because she loves her little X3 so much.

Service History and Tyres seems to be critical, I know when I bought the 2.5i I was talking to the dealer (independent) and he said to me, that whilst 2 of the tyres needed replacing he wouldn't have bought the car in the first place if it didn't have the OEM * Star fitment tyres on.

Good luck with your hunting, find a good one and they are a great car, the first BMW with the modern X Drive

[AW8]

Lots of info above & some proper sharing of real ownership experiences.

Havent read every line above but I do feel need to say that allegedly many in trade who sell car &/or use spanners might not recommend a 2.2 dci xtrail as most reliable car in this pricing area.....Be very careful.